Question from E-mail

First I want to say thank you, not just for your contributions as an engineer but for serving as a valuable role model as well. My personal experiences with computers evolved from the C64's to Apple IIe's, Windows then UNIX (several varieties) and now I feel as though I found the perfect OS with Linux. With all the discussion of Mac vs. Windows it seems like other good options don't get the recognition they deserve. I would like to know your opinions on these alternative OSes (Linux, FreeBSD, BeOS, etc...) as well as the open source movement. Have you ever played around with any of the other systems and if so do you think it possible that you might switch to something other than a Mac?

Woz

It's only been Apple ][ and Mac for me. I used a little UNIX in the far past, and have to touch on it for some of the network equipment that I administer.

Over the years I met so many people doing things with Atari computers, particularly the Amiga, that were not easily doable with Macs or any other PC, that I was very impressed. Many of the best people ('best' meaning those that want things other than normal and that can't stop moving and all) are into Linux so I admire it. But with all my time consumed with a large family and many computers to maintain and a network too, and mail and magazines and updates and all, I won't have time for things like Linux for quite a while. I actually look forward to my children being gone.

Question from E-mail

I have here in my office, running, the very Apple ][ mentioned above! It is rather unusual, and I've never seen another like it, or been able to find out more about it. It's all black, and the label reads, "Made exclusively for Bell & Howell by Apple Computer Inc." Tags on the back bear the following: Model No. A2S1016B Serial No. A2S3-005203 Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, California It contains a memory expansion card, an async serial card, a Disk ][ Interface and a card bearing the Microsoft logo. I was wondering about the relationship between Bell & Howell and Apple. I've never seen any mention of it, and never seen another machine like this one. I thought Bell and Howell made that old 8mm movie projector my dad would never let us touch! :) What were they doing in the computer biz? If you are too busy to answer individual messages, then just let my thank-you stand. Your machine, your ideas, have touched the lives of more people than I believe it is impossible to imagine. That's just simply incredible.

Woz

In very early Apple ][ days, Bell & Howell saw it as a good supplement to their school product line that included projectors and such tools. As you say, theirs were made in a black case, but were otherwise identical to the other Apple ]['s. It was a pretty impressive machine. Many may never have seen one. But, Bell & Howell already had respect in the school sales arena. The had salespeople that would be trusted by buyers. So this product was easier for them to sell into many schools. They just had to size up the market and earn money for selling. Thank you, too.

All terms: 8mm, Apple ][, Bell & Howell
Question from E-mail

Thanks for creating the Apple Computer. I spent most of the late 1970's waiting in line to use machines like the Wang 2200, IBM 5100, and Univac 90/60. The Apple ][ made a real difference -- the lines got shorter and the programs got better! Now I had time to kill, so I got a chance to really explore the hardware and software you designed. That Apple ][ was a neat machine with all kinds of "goodies" hidden inside. Students didn't get much documentation beyond a simple "How to..." and a guide to Integer BASIC. Finding your Monitor, Mini-Assembler, and "Sweet 16" hidden inside the ROM's was a real discovery -- More fun than "Adventure" or "Star Trek." Later on I realized that the REAL value of the Apple ][ was the potential for discovery within the machine itself. As I learned more about computer hardware and software, I started to understand some of the real "Hacks" inside that box: how to generate the video signal; how the video access refreshed the DRAMs; how the disk drives worked; even "mundane" parts like the power supply and peripheral slots revealed genious after careful study.

The Apple ][ was somewhere between a parable and a joke -- when you finally understood it, you smiled in the knowledge you knew something special. The Apple ][ was the only machine that made me smile.

Woz

I'm baffled by the amount of email saying the same things you say. Also, in my travels I continually run into individuals that learned so much about the guts of the hardware and software. I had learned about hardware and software very much the same way, finding manuals and schematics and listings for minicomputers and studying them and dissecting them and eventually looking for better ways. So I very much wanted the Apple ][ to include enough documentation for people to learn this way, as had I. It was very lucky that we were so small at first that we did this. It was an 'open' approach. Now, you could never imagine even Apple being this open about what's inside the box.

A lot of other things changed in this way too. When I developed the Apple computers, TV's came with schematics. Many radios did too. Now, everything is inside a chip. There was only a short period in history that such openness could have overlapped hugely successful computers, the same short window where only a few people could develop such products. It was 1975-1977. Then the window closed.

Question from E-mail

Is is true that you were a big fan of the Newton eMate?

What's your opinion regarding the discontinuation of the Newton platform?

Woz

The eMate solved a lot of problems that I had for years teaching 5th graders with PowerBooks. It survived rough treatment and drops, the way a laptop shoud. It didn't have constant hardware and sofware failures. It was easy to do many of the things students have to do in class. It was even easier than any computer to transfer files between students and teachers, with "Send" and "Receive" buttons that worked. Sort of like the simple syncronization of the Palm Pilot that made it so accepted.

Thinking about the prior customers as part of our loyal family, we should have been more loyal to them. Apple should not have discontinued the slightly profitable line until someone was found to license the technology to, even if for free. That way, some other company or companies could support it and provide replacements for the future, even if the Newton and it's great technologies weren't right for Apple to continue with.

Question from E-mail

My question is, would you personally have any hesitancy at this point in time to make a fairly large investment in a Macintosh computer? I want to go with Mac, but I keep getting hit with "PC's are just as good and less expensive" and "Mac OS isn't going to be around much longer." Since I am NOT an engineer who understands the details of operating systems, a lot of the explanations of why PC's have or have not caught up are lost on me. But I do know that my computers have been a dream to work on.

Woz

My time is pretty short and these are just my opinions:

The answer is possibly in what you need to do with the computer. Different platforms might have an advantage for certain tasks. Assuming that the PC and Mac both qualify here, the answer is in your own psychology. Do you want to be a part of the Mac struggle. We are a closely knit group that tries to help each other a lot and find solutions when they are needed. Because it's more important to us, we are extremely passionate about our platform. You might prefer the safety of the most (not best) software selections or the most friends to help you fix things. It's no fun to fix any computer problem, but from what I hear, PC's are much much worse here.

I hope that this helps you. It's strange, asking ME to advise you for or against the Mac.

All terms: Mac, Mac Os, Pc
Question from E-mail

I was wondering how involved with the Mac you are today? Are you still an apple employee in any way? Do you use only macs, and if so, what kind(s)? Do you ever talk to Steve Jobs? Have you felt "pushed back" into the spotlight since the movie?

Woz

I'm not formally involved with the Macintosh today, but I represent it informally and unofficially on occasion. I keep up with a lot of Macintosh equipment, first hand, and generally know more about what works and what doesn't and what's available and what's not than people inside of Apple

I talk to Steve Jobs on occassion but not too often.

I do feel 'pushed back' into the spotlight right now. Way too much email. I have to handle and turn down lots of reporters. I like a low profile better, it gives me more time to do what I really want to (which might be as simple as taking a child to school).

All terms: Apple, Macintosh, Steve Jobs
Comment from E-mail

When you first began working with the Apple (and I've read that you worked for both HP and Atari) what kind of education in the area of hardware construction and software development did you have (e.g. formal logic, mathematics, etc.)?

Woz

In third grade I was the only boy that could do flash cards as fast as the girls. In 4th and 5th grades I built electronics projects for science fairs. By 6th grade I could build and design many simple electronic circuits and had a ham radio license. I built my Hallicrafters receiver and transmitter as kits. In 6th grade I also built a tic-tac-toe computer out of hundreds of transistors and diodes on a 3' x 4' piece of plywood, using nails for connectors to solder to. I almost finished this computer, based on logic gates. In 8th grade I built a 10 bit parallel adder/subtractor and did very well in the local science fairs. The Air Force gave me their special award for the best electronic project in the Bay Area Science Fair, even though as an 8th grader I was competing with up to 12th graders. 

I constructed house to house intercoms in my neighborhood as a kid and read Popular Electronics, along with Tom Swift. I once won a soldering iron from Popular Electronics Magazine for submitting a joke. Occassionally I could ride my bike all the way to Sunnyvale Electronics and buy enough parts to build some small project, most often for a school prank. 

In high school I got my first minicomputer manual. I know how logic worked and I'd already sketched out many pages of a calculator design. Now I worked out a design for the PDP-8 computer based on my knowledge of logic. I started getting more and more computer manuals to practice my designs. Also I kept up with the latest chip catalogs. Every time I redesigned a minicomputer, I tried to use fewer chips than before. My design skills got better and better and I started getting very tricky on occassion. I would first look for the best chips that did the job at hand, but then would spend many more hours trying to find one chip intended for something else, that would do the job with fewer chips than normal. I found that I could often win at this game. 

It was only a game. I had no friends or relatives or teachers that did this design stuff with me. I had nobody to even show my designs to. I'd be embarrassed if anybody watched me designing them while in classes. It was an advantage for my shyness that nobody knew what I was doing. 

I was a math and science and electronics star in Junior High School and in High School, winning many honors. I was also a good math and science student, achieving many 800's on my college entrance exams. I didn't apply to any prestigious colleges because I visited the University of Colorado in Boulder and saw snow for the first time. That was the only place I'd go after that. 

I kept up my designs in college. I took a year off to pay for my third college year, programming for a local computer company. I took some real computer courses my third year, at Berkeley. I loved these courses so much that I'd sometimes finish the course bookwork in 2 weeks. 

I took off a year to earn money for my fourth college year. I wound up working on calculators at Hewlett Packard as an engineer. As my career progressed, I didn't have a chance to complete my degree. I worked on countless interesting computer projects outside of work. I also ran my dial-a-joke in this time frame. Eventually, we started Apple. 

 

You may have some answers in this long discourse, but mainly it boils down to my having been mostly self taught and not formerly educated in computer areas.

Question from E-mail

I was still in diapers when you and Steve Jobs started Apple in his parents garage. When I was in grade school my father bought me an ADAM computer (Z80) made by Coleco. Soon after that I was turned to the Apple //e. I remember very vividly the first time, at a convention, the first LISA. I was mesmerized. I first start using the MAC 512 in school, the newspaper. I used them until I graduated from school. I had every thing from the 512 to the Power Mac. Then because of the ever rising price of computers I was forced to turn the enemy, IBM. I now own both.

I was wondering how much you used the IBM compatible computers if ever?? Also, who decided to leave the bite out of the Apple in the logo?? You have seemed to be a very concerned person, kudos on your outlook on life. What is your outlook on the afterlife? What kind of religious beliefs do you have? Please reply, and thank you for your contributions to world that I grew up in .

 

Woz

I barely used the IBM compatables in early times. I kinda' liked the "junior" or something but nobody else did. I use them once in a while these days, when they are needed for my network administration. But I work around them as much as possible. I have a friend who has to use them and develop for and on them and he hates them just as much and always uses a Mac if there's any way. In his case, he's definitely expert enough on both platforms, the PC's are just more difficult.

I talked myself into some very strong religious beliefs around the start of college, and before too. I was very good and pure and generally only crossed streets at the corners and didn't drink or smoke or use drugs or participate in wild things. My religion was a pact with myself. I was very independent and had been strongly influenced by writers like Emmerson and Thoreau. I wasn't to be a follower. I wouldn't conform to my peers and do things just because they did them. If I was to get drunk it would have been alone only, because I had a reason and not just to follow others. I wouldn't join any church because then you're just going along with a bunch of other people. Is it that hard to figure out what's good and bad? I had nothing against the bible but didn't really read it. I admired Jesus. He must have been great to be so well remembered 2000 years later, and his turning the other cheek meant something akin to being good to those who are bad to you or say bad things about you. I picked up a lot of my internal religion cues from Dylan songs and Paul Simon songs (the "Boxer") and Dave Mason ("We just Disagree") and others to this day. I love popular music for these sorts of insights.

My favorite religious person was an engineer at Hewlett Packard who was also a Mormon (but not the former Mormon who was the lab manager and who turned down the idea of a computer, not as the movie shows but rather because he couldn't justify it as an HP product despite the fact that he loved it very much). Bill said that when people say that they have inner goodness, how can you tell if they're telling the truth. Outer things like the clothes they wear or the college they graduated don't mean as much as how they feel about and treat people, what's in their heart. He explained that he didn't forego coffee and other things because they were evil or bad or unhealthy. But these sorts of sacrifices are on the outside where everybody can see. Others can't see your inside but they can see these things. If you make such sacrifices for you religion and never waver, people can see that you hold true to your religion's tenets and beliefs, they can see that you must be true to these other tenets of being good as well.

Comment from E-mail

I just stumbled accross your commentary in response to a Dave Winer article published in a 1996 edition of HotWired. As a former Apple advocate, I wanted to tell you that you struck the nail squarely on the head as to why I chose the path of the PC in my career development. I grew up with Apple. My first machine was an Apple II+ with an external floppy disc (instead of tape... wow!). It was that machine that made me fall in love with computing. Reading your message recalled my sense of loss for what happened to Apple. But what really made me write this is the fact that I'm so impressed that you are doing what you've always wanted to do - teach. Of course, the article was from 1996. I hope you're still doing what you like to do. In my eyes, you will always be a hero.

Woz

Well, I wish that Apple could be as incredibly great as back then...

It's a thousand times harder. One view is that I'm taking the easy way out, teaching and all. My response to this view is that I always believed in finding the easy (or at least simple or small) way, but I had a strong internal feeling that I put into direct words long ago that I would NOT run a company and I did want to be a teacher and I did love kids. So others have the job of running the company, a job that I'm probably not capable of. I couldn't even do great engineering again as I once did. It was too hard!

All terms: Apple II, HotWired
Question from E-mail

I share your great enthusiasm for the flexible iMac and concern with current quality issues. I leave you with two question: (1) Which one of you guys, in the very early days, supposedly typed machine code from memory to build an operating system over a few days time? (Myth or Fact) (2) No one has commented on the old documentary "Triumph of the Nerds", what did you think of this show from several years back? (It is a favorite of mine.)

Woz

I wrote all my code on paper in hexadecimal. I couldn't afford an assembler to translate my programs into hexadecimal bytes, I did it myself. Even my BASIC interpreter is all hand written. I'd type 4K into the Apple I and ][ in about an hour. I, and many others too I think, could sit down and start typing hexadecimal in for a SMALL program to solve something that occured or something that somebody else wanted. I'd do this all the time for demos. I certainly don't remember which hexadecimal codes are which 6502 instructions any longer, but it was a part of life back then.

I liked "Triumph of the Nerds." It was one of the best shows ever created of that kind. Everyone has the same opinion, so why ask me? I'm not a history expert and couldn't tell you what it missed or got wrong, but it seemed extremly thorough and insightful.